Party Platform Development Thread: Foreign Policy

[POA]

I'm creating this thread for the discussion of all aspects of attempting to develop our platform regarding foreign policy.

[Ropegun]

This is a tough subject. Especially in light of the U.S. version of international intercourse, i.e., screwing your neighbor.

Fostering better realtions with the U.N. and abiding by the mandates of same would be a good start. Allowing the U.N. to do it's job would go a long way towards international goodwill and making the world safer.

I think one of the first things that we as a contry could do is either reduce or eliminate arms sales to other countries. Whether "allies" or not, I feel the world has plenty enough weapons as it is. Spreading the disease of war by arming everyone under the sun has done nothing to make things better. I think pushing the members of the U.N. and others to do the same is a good idea.

Allowing self determination among nations is something else I believe in. Just because we don't agree with a particular national leader does'nt mean we have the right to bomb them into dust. Disregarding peoples right to decide how they live their lives by clandestinely, or openly, invading their country in order to foster a regime which is suitable to the greed of our corporations has created a situation where we are despised for being hypocrites. This must end.
If humanitarian aid is needed, then by all means we can help, but capitalistic greed using military force to feed itself has got to stop.

I have more ideas on this, but I have a bit of a headache, so I'll continue later.

Peace.

[RPankn]

I have a suggestion: all countries have the right to self-determination. That is, the people of a country have the sole right to choose their structure(s) of government, system(s) of government, how they choose to conduct elections, who they choose to elect without interference from outside persons, groups or governments.

The CIA will be barred from conducting covert operations along the lines of plotting and aiding in the assassination of Allende in Chile, attempting to overthrow Chavez in Venezuela, installing Hussein in Iraq, the Shah in Iran, funding bin Laden and the mujahadeen in Afghanishtan, etc.

Something needs to be done about NED and other think tanks like the PNAC, the "Progressive" Policy Institute as well and their influence over politicians and administrations. Personally, I think forcing people like Wolfowitz, Albright, Berger, Beers and Holbrooke to live as peasants in the countries they choose to subjugate to U.S. economic interests would be one way to fix this, but that would probably violate the Constitution.

[Ropegun]

Here are some more general thoughts. I have nothing very specific yet, as in how to deal with things like Israel/Plestine or North Korea, but I'm working on some ideas.

Anyway......
Landmines must be banned.

DU munitions, as well as the types of armor DU is designed to defeat must be banned.

Cluster bombs using bomblets or submunitions resembling toys must be banned.

Chemical, biological, and radiological weapons must be banned.

Any use of any of these types of weapons systems should be subject to some sort of penalty imposed by an international court.

Corporations or nations continuing to manufacture such systems should likewise be punished by an international court. Perhaps such hefty fines as to make the risk of producing these systems unprofitable would be in order. Fines could be paid into an international relief fund, or into a fund paying for the cleanup of these weapons throughout the world. I'd also like to mimic RPankn and send the owners, CEOs and board members of said businesses to participate in the cleanup of these places. Part of the penalty could be that you would have to go shovel radioactive sand digging out DU projectiles, or something similar.

I'll have more later.

Peace.

[POA]

RPankn said:

I have a suggestion: all countries have the right to self-determination. That is, the people of a country have the sole right to choose their structure(s) of government, system(s) of government, how they choose to conduct elections, who they choose to elect without interference from outside persons, groups or governments.

The CIA will be barred from conducting covert operations along the lines of plotting and aiding in the assassination of Allende in Chile, attempting to overthrow Chavez in Venezuela, installing Hussein in Iraq, the Shah in Iran, funding bin Laden and the mujahadeen in Afghanishtan, etc.

Something needs to be done about NED and other think tanks like the PNAC, the "Progressive" Policy Institute as well and their influence over politicians and administrations. Personally, I think forcing people like Wolfowitz, Albright, Berger, Beers and Holbrooke to live as peasants in the countries they choose to subjugate to U.S. economic interests would be one way to fix this, but that would probably violate the Constitution.

I agree with both you and Ropegun about the fundamental right of self-determination for other nations, and I'm going to include it in the first draft of the platform statement accordingly.

The NED and similar organizations are official organs of the government and recieve federal funding. As a result, their appropriations can be cut off by Congress. At the same time (and this is something that's going to require a lot of watchfulness from us as grass roots/party members), there are a lot of organizations that would be quite willing to take up the same function as the NED.

The Logan Act could concievably be used against them. This law states that individuals who aren't part of the government can't engage in 'personal diplomacy' (meaning cutting their own deals with foreign governments).

The epidemic of 'think tanks' might be stemmed by cutting off their flow of information through a series of prosecutions, also based on the Logan Act, and also because they probably couldn't function unless they're recieving classified information.* One of Richard Perle's associates, for example, was under investigation for spying for the Israelis. A Counterpunch article describes additional behavior along these lines wrt the neocons.

As far as forcing the neocons/foreign policy apparatchiks to suffer the way they've forced everyone else to, I think that probably would be unconstitutional as well. However, they can still either be extradited to the countries that still have warrants on them, or sending them to the ICC for trial/punishment, and also to get them out of the country so they can't cause further trouble.

*The entire classification scheme, of course, is going to have to be changed so American citizens have fundamental rights as far as information is concerned. Right now it's a massive exercise in hypocrisy as much as a lot of other issues as far as American governance is concerned-an average individual who learns anything will be punished harshly, but the 'revolving door' allows all sorts of corruption among the well-connected.

[Ropegun]

Yes, I would like to see the manufacturers of certain weapoms systems treated the same way as tobacco companies, and the way pwoplw want to treat gun manufacturers treated.

If your landmine maims someone in a country different from where it's company is headquartered, that country could have jurisdiction, and the person or persons family could sue ofr damages, just like here.

This would do much to prevent making bomblets look like butterflys made of plastic, and fewer children would be picking them up, and thus losing hands and arms.

I think you guys just way outclass me regarding this experiment we have in here. I feel like such an uneducated bonehead on many subjects. Sorry to slow you all down.


Peace.

[calabi-yau]

Ropegun said:

I think you guys just way outclass me regarding this experiment we have in here. I feel like such an uneducated bonehead on many subjects. Sorry to slow you all down.

Peace.

Hey you, yeah you ! If YOU are a bonehead, then I sure would like to know who writes all those posts of yours because I may need some of his/her expertise on my end too and I would gladly take his/her advice on things.

Rome wasn't built in one day and that's the task many Americans like you are giving themselves right now. This is admirable and is cause for hope. Don't forget, we really are talking about Rome here, we are just living it in a different millenium.

Peace, Paix, Pax

[karpomrx]

In a sense, I am a conservative, in the fashion of Samuel Johnson or H.L. Mencken. We should not pass more laws when we probably have enough to do the job.
Back in my salad days I remember hearing of U.S Codes that prohibited gifts, bribery, any number of shady practices that now are disguised as lobbying.
It would not surprise me at all if most of these restrictions were still in force, though buried deep under the mountains of piffle that our representatives now busy themseles with.
Perhaps the law is the way to drive the moneychangers from the temple.

[POA]

Ropegun said:

Here are some more general thoughts. I have nothing very specific yet, as in how to deal with things like Israel/Plestine or North Korea, but I'm working on some ideas.

Anyway......
Landmines must be banned.

DU munitions, as well as the types of armor DU is designed to defeat must be banned.

Cluster bombs using bomblets or submunitions resembling toys must be banned.

Chemical, biological, and radiological weapons must be banned.

Any use of any of these types of weapons systems should be subject to some sort of penalty imposed by an international court.

Corporations or nations continuing to manufacture such systems should likewise be punished by an international court. Perhaps such hefty fines as to make the risk of producing these systems unprofitable would be in order. Fines could be paid into an international relief fund, or into a fund paying for the cleanup of these weapons throughout the world. I'd also like to mimic RPankn and send the owners, CEOs and board members of said businesses to participate in the cleanup of these places. Part of the penalty could be that you would have to go shovel radioactive sand digging out DU projectiles, or something similar.

I'll have more later.

Peace.

I'm going to try and handle these in orders:

1) Landmines-I'm pretty sure there was a treaty banning landmines that the United States, sure enough, under the Bush administration opted not to ratify.

A high priority should be the ratification of this treaty or (once we get people in Congress) resolutions supporting such a ratification and heightening awareness. If Kerry refuses to ratify (and I hope he wouldn't be stupid/bone-headed enough to do this, although I have my doubts), then this is something else to hammer him about.

2) I think similar issues exist regarding cluster bombs. I'll research this further and get back to you.

3) DU munitions I agree should also be banned, and that'll be added into the platform. There is a related issue that falls into:

4) Regarding banning NBC (nuclear, biological, chemical weapons), I agree but at the same time, we're going to need to invest a lot of money into finding a place to either store the nuclear components (since they take a long time to degrade through fission), and to destroy the biological and chemical weapons. Incinerators like at Umatilla are a disaster waiting to happen.

Something else that also needs to be strengthened is Office of Technology and Transfer, which is responsible for iirc keeping records of potential weapons components/'dual use' equipment/starting materials.

There should also perhaps be a treaty and international recording requirements regarding certain classes of chemicals, so that way future arms control could be easier for all concerned.

6) Your idea of fines for manufacturing/usage is a good one.

This also relates to policy regarding the Middle East as well, since I"m sure we're all aware of the fact that Israel is the region's only nuclear power.

Another issue regarding foreign policy-stop appointing political donors to be ambassadors to various nations. I'm sure they must recieve some training before they get to their posts (at least I hope they do...), but it's small wonder that the US' image is so bad in addition to all of the horrors our governmental system is responsible for when our representatives to other nations are probably myopic and privileged businessmen.

[Ropegun]

Some of the major FP issues that I've been thinking about include nations like North Korea. This has'nt just started to be a problem recently, but has been going on for awhile.

They now appear to have nuclear weapons, or at least the capability to manufacture them. This could be major trouble, but up to now, they've only used it as a way to get money from the U.S.

Kim Jong Il rattles his sabre and we give him coin to shut him up and pacify him for awhile.

This is a sticky situation. And one not easy to extricate ourselves from.

I know North Korea's economy is not good. It has'nt been for a long time. And this is the primary motivator for whats happening.

So whats to prevent canning this "axis of evil" B.S. and allowing some sort of help for these people in ways other than just giving them money? Something like helping them rebuild their ability to sustain themselves economically? Help them sort out the mess they've created, and opening them up to better, more normal relations with us? If that particular hurdle could be cleared, maybe investment from outside Korea would come into the equation and lift that country up a bit. Then they could feed themselves, and they'd be much more pleasant to be around, an easier to deal with. And just maybe the threats would go away.

Give them a reason to put the gun down, in a manner of speaking.

This is pretty much my thinking across the board. If we'd stop meddling in other countries affairs, and stop dictating to them, and stealing their resources, I truly believe most countries would love to deal with us. But as long as we continue forcing them to give us what they have, and making them do it for a pittance, we'll continue to have problems.

I don't know if this makes sense or not, but these are some of my ideas. I have more and I'll post them soon.

Peace.