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Post by Moses on Mar 29, 2005 9:09:37 GMT -5
Which thing?
I think that since the political class, having been bought and paid for by Israeli interests, are not only in favor of the Iraq war, but in favor of pre-emptive, illegal wars of aggression, and not even opposed to illegal detentions and torture, it will be up to unaffiliated people to organize against the war and to disseminate the truth. While "True Majority" a party-connected org, they appear to be the only one taking up the Iraq War Issue.
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Post by Ropegun on Mar 29, 2005 12:32:48 GMT -5
I hope that it was'nt suggested that I was being silent by questioning the online meeting situation, Tom.
I merely want to know what the organizers hoped to achieve with what they were putting forth.
Online petitions come and go, protests do the same, and nothing seems to come from it other than a furthering of marginalisation, propogated by bought off media. If things are covered, they are minimised and scoffed at as being the actions of a few hippy dope smoking communists.
I think most folks realize that there is a contingent of people who are against the war. They know things are going badly and are not likely to improve anytime soon. They know that they are paying for this misadventure, and that it is affecting their lives in tangible ways.
Yet they see those of us that march and voice our opinions, as well as many other things, and they still listen to what they're told. And they believe it. Even here in "lefty" Seattle, those of us on the anti-war side are made to be insignificant by local media, not to mention nationally.
This is why I ask what the goal of this online meeting is. What is realistically hoped to happen?
I think the time of protest is pretty much over. Not that protest is a bad thing, but it does'nt seem to do anything. The powers that be do not care what dissenters think. They can survive the words and the rhetoric, and all the speeches and signs.
I hope this cyber-gathering is used to organize some action, direct or not. Actions are the only thing the administration and it's handlers are going to notice. And until a large enough percentage of the population are willing to make a dent in this system, however that may come about, nothing will change.
Enough of my cynicism.
Peace.
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Post by Moses on Mar 29, 2005 13:15:22 GMT -5
I completely agree with you!! The only thing unique about this is that a relatively establishment org (True Majority) is retaining the war as an issue (or as a fundraiser?).
It is an opportunity for those who have no other sort-of mainstream vehicle to oppose the war to register their opposition to the war in a way that might be of some influence in countering the Washington Establishment Establishment of the pre-emptive war.
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Post by Ropegun on Mar 29, 2005 16:16:57 GMT -5
But how do things like this have any influence? The war continues. Corporate control continues. Political use of ordinary citizen's private affairs continues. The system of domination continues unabated after countless protests.
Something more must be done than just talking about the problems that exist. I agree with what happened in Kyrgystan. I agree with what happened in Ukraine.
But I also agree with what happened in Chiapas.
Just some thoughts.
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Post by Moses on Mar 29, 2005 16:45:55 GMT -5
I am told that what happened in those countries won't happen here, because the US (which fomented the Ukraine situation) is doing the opposite here-- they hold the strings and fund "democracy" orgs elsewhere, while funding Pat Robertson et al here.
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Post by camaxtle on Mar 29, 2005 18:40:39 GMT -5
I enjoy your discussion, and I agree with both of you, I think that what will have to happen, and I alluded to this before is people are going to have to go underground and become secretive about what they are planning, bringing in outsiders who they know they can trust, with a way of checking peoples backgrounds. I know it sounds crazy and far fetched but we can't keep on doing the same thing. It ends up becoming too frustrating. I really believe the only way to change things now will have to be dramatic and physical. I'm not talking violence necessarily, but a coup of some sort. I hope I haven't alienated myself with my comments.
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Post by karpomrx on Mar 30, 2005 1:22:40 GMT -5
H*ll! I often alienate myself from my own comments!
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Post by Moses on Mar 30, 2005 3:37:51 GMT -5
Re: the underground groups w/ only trusted individuals: it is true that virtually all groups are infiltrated by the opposition or those w/ a neocon agenda, and are practiced at steering the orgs or distracting the orgs. So at the very least a recognition that the group will be infiltrated, and disciipline on the part of the leadership to adhere to original principles is necessary.
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Post by nana on Mar 30, 2005 4:24:50 GMT -5
re: infiltration.
As any member of non-violent, pro-peace, passive resistance organizations will tell you:
the infiltrators are the ones recommending violence or some other action that will break the law or in some way discredit the group and all other groups claiming to be non-violent.
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Post by Moses on Mar 30, 2005 9:30:06 GMT -5
Yes-- for some reason peace groups are quickly infiltrated, no matter how humble or obscure they may be. I wonder if this is organized from someplace?
In addition to urging actions to discredit, they act on the ideas they have about peaceniks-- this is a made-up example, but suppose they have the idea that peaceniks/liberals love little furry kittens. They will attempt to push the buttons of the org members, buttons as they percieve them, to get the org behind their agenda. Like "you can save the little furry kittens if you support bioweapons development". This is maybe a lame example but do you know what I mean?
They also seem to regard peaceniks as easilly manipulatable. I regard the whole Kucinich campaign w/ that Williams woman as an example of this-- throwing their support to a war-monger, Edwards, at a key moment, w/ Williams telling people that she sensed he was "at peace" with himself, and had equanimity and that sort of thing. This was doubly d**ning, because it had those interested in peace, like the right wing Christians, subverted to focusing on some kind of inner contruct v. stopping war and killing people. Like Bush does w/ his base, she made complete fools of them. Some must have been laughing up their sleeves.
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Post by camaxtle on Mar 30, 2005 21:51:33 GMT -5
A while back, sometime last year, I read an article over at the sc about the CIA actually going to war against the White House and trying to "overthrow" the current regime. Well that was then. I've also read articles of people talking about the military stepping in and ousting these bastards to help regain some sense of correct government. My biggest dream is of masses of ordinary citizens marching on the white house and just taking them down. Frog marching Cheney and Bush and Rice, Rove, Rumsfeld, and Delay, and the various other criminals in hiding, both republican and democrat combined to jail. The problem is, is that the ordinary uninformed citizen, (the prole) doesn't believe that there is anything wrong. As we have all pointed out, as long as they can have their walmart and reality tv they will never know the freedoms they have lost.
On another front, We need to find some way to get these false democrats out of power. Biden, Clinton, Lieberman, Kerry. Democrats of convenience. They are hurting this country more than anyone. Why? Because they are complicit and are in government only for themselves. They are useless and know nothings. The fact that they haven't been exposed and called to task has shown that we the american people are just as complicit in this failure. Who is in the congress or Senate that we can turn to to be a leader in this time of darkness? Someone who can be trusted to have morals and integrity. Who can think of the good of the country and not worry about being reelected. Thats what we need. someone who can sacrifice their political future, but in a way that will help this country move forward out of this morass. I'm a dreamer.
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Post by Ropegun on Mar 30, 2005 22:26:52 GMT -5
Why do you look to those already stealing from the people to lead? How can they lead when they have never followed?
If you want someone to represent you, that someone should come from where you do. That someone should be one of your numbers.
Why do you think rich people allow only rich people to make policy here?
You should be looking for your leaders closer to home. In fact, you should be looking to yourself.
Peace.
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Post by camaxtle on Mar 30, 2005 23:35:32 GMT -5
You are so right Ropegun, Thank you. I am shamed.
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Post by Ropegun on Mar 31, 2005 0:16:56 GMT -5
Please man, don't be shamed! That was'nt my intention at all.
I merely wanted point out the fact that you are just as capable of being a leader as anyone else is. Most people have the capacity to lead, only they might not have the opportunity or circumstances to do so.
Leadership comes from strength of vision, and the fortitude to stand up for, and carry out that vision, no matter what the price. You can have all the flowery speeches you want, but if you run at the first sign of trouble, or lack the judgement to do the right thing, then you are'nt a leader, as you will quickly have no followers.
This is what happened with the dems, and Gore and Kerry in particular. They said lots of things, and did little. And even when it was apparent that their victories were stolen, they did nothing but capitulate. These men are not leaders, even though they have leadership positions.
I would go so far to say that there is more leadership potential in this forum than in the entire congress.
Whether that potential is realized is something else entirely.
Peace.
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Post by nana on Mar 31, 2005 0:53:50 GMT -5
From the similarity of a few of stories that have slithered quietly through some of the peacenik communities in California, my suspicion is: It probably is organized. It seems that at least some of the infiltrators have been local police. Which would make sense. The police repeatedly cruise by even the most peaceful demonstrations including things as innocuous as candle light vigils, taking photos of all the participants while ignoring those directing hate speech and even death threats at the demonstrators. They also collect the license plate numbers from vehicles parked in the area of the demonstartion and match up the people to their cars and drivers license photos and the rest is easy. Sadly I think Mark Morford's column Is This A New Dark Age? at sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2005/03/25/notes032505.DTL&nl=fixprobably nailed it.
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