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Post by POA on Jan 5, 2005 13:05:21 GMT -5
The topic, essentially, is the topic question.
Will democracy, essentially, even be established in the United States? Is there any hope whatsoever?
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Post by tombldr on Jan 5, 2005 17:00:39 GMT -5
I just got through Powerdown : Options and Actions for a Post-Carbon World by Richard Heinberg. Good read... I have alot of respect for his views. I remain convinced of Peak Oil's reality and the imminent collapse of industrial civilization. PowerDown operates with this as the premise, and outlines the various possible global approaches to managing the decline; with the US elite having already opted for the bloody "last one standing" solution. Heinberg also spends some time highlighting how civilizations have declined historically, and notes that one noble job will be preserving and documenting the explosion of knowledge, arts etc of this brief ~150 year comet in human history known as the oil age/ industrial revolution. He takes the gloves off vs his prior book, The Party's Over: Oil, War and the Fate of Industrial Societies, in asserting unequivocally that the cheney regime staged 911. He also predicts some of the "blame game" back and forth those emersed in the bogus left/right paradigm (my words not his) will be engaging in when the economic decline is on... essentially to remain properly divided and conquered just like they are presently. Follow the links to read the amazon reviews of these books, and don't hesitate to buy either/both. While I'm on book reviews, happy to see the accolades rolling in for Ruppert's Crossing the Rubicon. Onlinereviewofbooks.com named Crossing the Rubicon as Non-fiction Book of the Year for 2004. And, along with The New Pearl Harbor, these 911 truth books even got their faces on the TEE VEE!
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Post by Moses on Jan 6, 2005 0:59:19 GMT -5
I think that there is almost no possibility that the neocons weren't in on 9/11.
"In mid-2003, the reliable Jim Lobe of Inter Press Service reported:
"It appears increasingly clear that key officials and their allies outside the administration intended to use the Sep. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks as a pretext for going to war against Iraq within hours of the attacks themselves. Within the administration, the principals appear to have included Pentagon chief Donald Rumsfeld, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, Vice Pres. Dick Cheney, and his national security adviser, I. Lewis Libby, among others in key posts in the National Security Council and the State Department."
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Post by tombldr on Jan 6, 2005 3:11:46 GMT -5
I think that there is almost no possibility that the neocons weren't in on 9/11. I used to think 911 was a pure neocon coup/reichstag fire. But Dem silence/complicity in the face of the lopsided facts; complicity in the Kean 911 whitewash commish, silence/complicity in the brazenly telegraphable blackbox voting trainwreck.. and if my roadmap is accurate, their complicity in the pure theater which will play out over the next couple weeks with the act about a serious "opposition party" protest of the fake election esp wrt Ohio... which will magically resolve with the reinstallation of cheneyco... well, where to begin? Washington/Wall Street is just plain broken, and I maintain that the best "independent" analysis of what's going on remains Ruppert's "Crossing the Rubicon"
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Post by Lani on Jan 6, 2005 4:27:38 GMT -5
I almost hate to say it but I too agree with:
I've always tended to be optimistic and hopeful but I've gradually come to realize that this country is probably going to go the way of many other countries that started out with great ideas and ideals but as the gap between the ideal and the reality becomes too great, the stresses can no longer be accomodated and those in 'power' (actually it's force not power) resort to fascism or something like it and the dumbing down and brain washing of even half its citizens is so effective that they believe the PR and ignore the reality and manage to silence those who see what is happening by threats, fear, sanctions, harrassment and incarceration.
I am beginning to think we've only seen the tip of the iceberg and we're a long way, sad to say, from hitting bottom. It's going to get even uglier unless somehow the UN and or the ICC, those Americans who are horrified and disgusted by the policies of this misadministration, and the rest of the world can apply enough pressure in the form of sanctions and ecomonic isolation to force the changes it's going to be a very bumpy ride for the people on the entire planet and those living in the USA. It needs to happen both from inside the US and from outside.
How and when freedom and justice and equality will be re-established I don't know but it's never been a neat and tidy transition from fascist dictatorships back to freedom and real democracy.
I keep hoping but at 63 I'm beginning to suspect it may not happen in what's left of my lifetime.
There used to be a bad joke about Washington D.C. .. Q:. "What does the D.C. in Washington D. C. mean?" A: "District of Corruption.
It seems it's been living up to it's other meaning for longer than most of us want to acknowledge.
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Post by karpomrx on Jan 6, 2005 18:40:42 GMT -5
I am sceptical in that I doubt that the use of power can be resisted by a small minority of lizard-brained territorial apes who are more than willing to steal , kill their fellows , make war, anything rather than find fulfillment in a more peaceful approach to living. Whether this begins with bad toilet training or sensory deprivation in infancy is moot. When these lunatics band together they spend our energy and treasure on nuclear weapons, death camps, inaugurations and an endless list of vain and shallow activities. It seems that most of my fellow citizens are far more concerned about a sports team, or the sexual activities of fictional persons on teevee than about the planet we float upon in space. The history we are taught is generally a hoax, put in the minds of a society that is conditioned to need the simplest of myths, with no complicated questions about ethical behavior or the consequences of an action. I hope that events may shut off the teevee culture, liberating them to act, rather than continue as passive consumers, with no more awareness than Pavlov's dogs. This is a challenge to what remains of my sanity, however, I can see nothing else to do with the rest of my life that is so needful and possibly, rewarding.
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Post by camaxtle on Jan 19, 2005 23:34:23 GMT -5
I don't have much hope for the United States. The people have been sold down the river by their own representatives. People who were elected to fight for their beliefs and what the people wanted. The people are complacent and ignorant and completely unimaginative. Many know the truth, but it is easier to accept party doctrine. It reminds me of "1984" The only problem with that is Winston Smith, said that the hope lies with the proles. Our problem is the proles are completely enamored of their "Great Leader" He speaks to them, because he speaks in simple terms. Good, Evil, TERROR. FREEDOM and all that hogwash. I don't think the general populace will even realize the liberties we have lost, why? Because they are too ignorant and uninformed. They get the majority of their news from the T.V. They don't know the history of the United States, the reasons for our revolution. The trials of the first patriots, the Federalist Papers, and the high ideals this country was founded on. To the majority they are concerned with REALITY TV and WALMART, and as long as the government provides more of the same, they will continue to feel safe and secure.
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Post by Moses on Jan 20, 2005 4:47:29 GMT -5
I think that those of us who know how evil Bush is, and how both parties have broken their covenant w/ the people of America, need to speak and write about it in every venue possible: www.nytimes.com/2005/01/20/politics/20poll.html?thThe findings, coming after a tensely competitive election, suggest that Mr. Bush does not have broad popular support as he embarks on what the White House has signaled would be an extraordinarily ambitious second term, which in many ways will commence with Mr. Bush's swearing-in and speech on Thursday. That could undermine his leverage in Congress, where even some Republicans have expressed concern about major aspects of Mr. Bush's Social Security plans. Mr. Bush's job approval rating is at 49 percent as he heads into his second term - significantly lower than the ratings at the start of the second terms of the last two presidents who served eight years, Bill Clinton and Ronald Reagan. And 56 percent said the country has gone off on the wrong track, about as bad a rating Mr. Bush has received on this measure since entering the White House.
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Post by camaxtle on Mar 16, 2005 23:03:53 GMT -5
I've been doing a lot of thinking lately, and the other night I had the wierdest dream. I was in a small town, and John Kerry was there. It was after the election and I approached Kerry and told him that I had voted for him and told him how disappointed I was in his response to the election. He said something to me about it didn't matter or something to that effect. I went after him, and I scolded him saying that the people were there for him, that he had failed the people. I can't remember it but in my dream he just sort of shrugged his shoulders and walked despondently away. Now I don't know what this dream was telling me, but I think it was telling me something. You asked, Is America Salvageable? Well in spite of the fact that everyday I watch Cnn or listen to NPR, I turn it off in disgust because it is so obvious that the news media is just churning out party doctrine, I do believe that America is Salvageable. The very fact that this site and others like it exist speaks to this fact. The question is how do we save it? Well I tried this over at the SC but it didn't work, so I try it again here. We need to use these sites not to just complain and rehash what has already been hashed, we need to use these sites as education tools for our fellow citizens. We need to bring people here we know are looking for truth and honest discussion. We need to organize not just here but out on the streets, in our towns and communities. We need to build a party, a common party in our own communities and search out like minded people. We can't depend on people like Kerry or even Dean to take up the banner. It is our time as normal everyday citizens to get out and educate and inform the people. we should use this site to build a party platform or doctrine that we are loyal to that we can use to help bring in others. I am an idealist, but I believe in my ideals and I believe that my ideals are worth fighting for. Who was it that said "If the people will lead the leaders will follow" I know that that is true, not just some slogan. Once we stand up and voice ourselves, others in postions of power will need to take notice and listen and join with us. It is time to take sites like this to the next level. This is a tool that we can use we shouldn't let the opportunity slip through our hands. Sitting on our hands hasn't helped at all. This site could be the Federalist Papers reborn. LET'S ORGANIZE!
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Post by Moses on Mar 16, 2005 23:30:03 GMT -5
Norman Soloman suggested an alternative org, now that MoveOn has shed its pretense of being anti-war, but I don't think it was an interactive org. I'll try to find the link.
I do think that open discussion of the truth is a critical component. As you say, NPR is nothing but NED propaganda for the Empire. It is horrifically obvious. And it is truly revolting, as it clearly attempts to hook people into becoming little armchair empirists.
And a study showed that "liberals" who watch television were more likely to support the Iraq war, by far, than those who watched very little television and relied on newspapers and other written material. (I think it was 49% v. 20%).
This alone is proof that the broadcast media deliberately orchestrated support for the zionist crusade in the ME.
Because the Israeli control of US policy is the major cause of this, and yet the topic is taboo, it is important to break the taboo.
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Post by camaxtle on Mar 17, 2005 23:21:04 GMT -5
Okay we know who the enemy is but how do we go about fighting it? Any links you might have to help push me in the right direction I would greatly appreciate. I'm not willing to just walk away resign myself to defeat like Kerry. I originally thought that Dean as the chairperson to the DLC was a good idea, but I think they realized he was a threat and roped him in, he has now become ineffective and is part of the system. Right where they want him. Is there any hope or are we all afraid to risk ourselves and therefore will remain silent in order not to drawn undue attention from the thought police? Am I Winston Smith, thinking I've found the underground when I'm actually only talking to the leader of the thought police himself? Makes me wonder.
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Post by Moses on Mar 18, 2005 2:37:33 GMT -5
It would appear that actual organizations, or most of them, are funded by the same parties who brought us the Iraq war, etc. And each new one that is formed is quickly infiltrated. Advocacy orgs are funded by those that they should oppose, or orbit around them.
So maybe the answer is to NOT organize. Of course that's not really true if one wants to influence the pols, but organizing around issues or talented leaders on an ad hoc basis may be one answer, as well as communicating w/ like-minded people or potentially persuadable people and exchanging ideas and building understanding knowledge despite a media that is cooked-- completely cooked. I think many realize that the media in America is even worse than that of the National Socialist Party at this point.
None of the established channels seem to be any good! (And certainly neither political party).
I think all we can do is be vigilant to the opportunities to oppose these tyrannies, and the clearly elitist society/government -- it feels foreign, even, that we are now powerless against, by latching on to people and organizations as they arise.
And keep digging for the truth, which has yet to appear in mainstream media.
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Post by Ropegun on Mar 18, 2005 18:09:16 GMT -5
I agree with Moses to a point.
All of the established channels seem to be worthless at this point.
The question I have for you, camaxtle, is this.
How far are you willing to go to make change happen?
This pretty much goes for everyone here.
I think this is a question we will all be faced with fairly soon. Thw eay things are going, we may be foced into making decisions we don't really like, and may have to do things we might not do otherwise.
Either we move on what we know to be true, work to find answers to things we speculate on and present this information to the world , and WORK to make change, or we will surely have no future.
In my mind, the problems that this country faces goes way beyond local protests and the like. The issues that concern us average folks must be taken up with those in the federal government. They are the ones who blackmail the states with the threat of federal tax dollars being withheld. They are the ones taking the largest chunk of our money and using it for purposes other than they should. They are the ones killing our kids and those in other countries. They need to be held accountable and punished for what they've done.
Once that happens, we can deal with the business of the individual states and corporations.
Just my opinion, though.
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Post by camaxtle on Mar 18, 2005 21:34:54 GMT -5
Thank you for the question, I thought no one would ever ask. How far will I go? Let me digress first. When I hear talk of leaving the country, it bothers me. I realize that I am a patriot, I love my country, but I love the idealism that brought this country into being, the idealism that made us great once upon a time. I'm not willing to flee in the night, and let these evil powermongers win. It won't happen, because I've realized that once you start running, you never stop, because they aren't satisfied with just this corner of the world, they want EVERYTHING! It needs to be stopped! The question that we always come up against is how. Well, I'll just say that it is my civic duty to go as far as possible to ensure they are brought down. I will make myself informed, and I will do my most to inform others, but I was hoping sites like this could be used to organize, but I realize that in order for us to truly use this site to organize, we would need to go underground, and take on the aspects of a secret society. In doing that we would become isolated and ineffectual. In the meantime I will educate myself and others to the best of my ability and change my buying habits. I will do what is necessary. I am totally open to any suggestions and criticisms. It is all helpful. I am not going to be made obsolete or of no consequence. Every dragon has a weak point. This one has many. We need to take advantage of it's many weaknesses. One thing that I think we should all be aware of is being suckered into believing party hacks, into believing that going along to get along is the best way to get things done. We've already seen that with Kerry, and we are seeing it again with Dean, you can't work inside the system and not be contaminated.
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Post by Moses on Mar 22, 2005 23:24:35 GMT -5
Yes-- one of the reasons for this site is that all the other sites are extensions of the Democratic Party-- some allowing more dissent from the party line than others, but all promoting "winning" elections, as the goal.
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