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Post by Moses on May 9, 2004 20:58:19 GMT -5
Good summary.
Yes, alot of the American "thinkers" are shoving the European system on us by way of the testing regime. None of them having every had a kid in school, apparently.
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Post by stonefruit on May 11, 2004 17:06:21 GMT -5
Everybody go look at my masters thesis on educational philosophy. www.democracyunbound.com/thesis.htmlThis is my field and I work at a high level. I will tell you right here and now, in spite of the intelligence and good intentions of people trying to improve the system from within like myself: serious education in America is IMPOSSIBLE and will be until America hits bottom, goes through its dark night of the soul/civil war/revolution, and comes out on the other side, truly ready for peace, social justice and sustainability. Here's a teaser from my thesis. "The structural problems of the world capitalist system in general and America in particular have reached critical mass and are likely to precipitate a crisis of epic magnitude in the very near future. "The ideological celebration of so-called globalization is in reality the swan song of our historical system." (Wallerstein, 1998, 32-33) Until this scenario is played out - or education for once decides to abandon the status quo in favor of the progress of humankind - any talk of educational reform or improvement is simply rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. America's last hope for survival is to 1) create a cadre of people with transformed ways of being in the world who could create the liberated territory of the new society, embryonic islands of alternative culture that may grow into each other like a reef displacing the sea, 2) speak truth to power and isolate how the evil is done and 3) walk a long march through the primary institutions of society, emplacing righteous people in strategic positions of responsibility in the courts, media, think tanks and elsewhere, most especially the schools There we must facilitate the immediate emergence and implementation of a philosophy of education for peace, social justice and sustainability, with domain content areas rectified accordingly to make visible the repression of the hidden curriculum. We must also reimagine the social relation of the education encounter in a way that escapes reiterating the existing social relations of domination, subordination, extrinsic motivation and credentialing. Considering how long the odds of these things actually happening are, the future looks grim indeed for America's two hundred year + experiment with democracy. By waiving their obligation to provide informed consent as the governed in exchange for overconsumption and "protection" from manufactured fears, the sheeple have grown accustomed to using material goods to satisfy non-material needs and become mired in a suspended state of preadolescence."
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Post by POA on May 11, 2004 18:19:49 GMT -5
Everybody go look at my masters thesis on educational philosophy. www.democracyunbound.com/thesis.htmlThis is my field and I work at a high level. I will tell you right here and now, in spite of the intelligence and good intentions of people trying to improve the system from within like myself: serious education in America is IMPOSSIBLE and will be until America hits bottom, goes through its dark night of the soul/civil war/revolution, and comes out on the other side, truly ready for peace, social justice and sustainability. Here's a teaser from my thesis. "The structural problems of the world capitalist system in general and America in particular have reached critical mass and are likely to precipitate a crisis of epic magnitude in the very near future. "The ideological celebration of so-called globalization is in reality the swan song of our historical system." (Wallerstein, 1998, 32-33) Until this scenario is played out - or education for once decides to abandon the status quo in favor of the progress of humankind - any talk of educational reform or improvement is simply rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. America's last hope for survival is to 1) create a cadre of people with transformed ways of being in the world who could create the liberated territory of the new society, embryonic islands of alternative culture that may grow into each other like a reef displacing the sea, 2) speak truth to power and isolate how the evil is done and 3) walk a long march through the primary institutions of society, emplacing righteous people in strategic positions of responsibility in the courts, media, think tanks and elsewhere, most especially the schools There we must facilitate the immediate emergence and implementation of a philosophy of education for peace, social justice and sustainability, with domain content areas rectified accordingly to make visible the repression of the hidden curriculum. We must also reimagine the social relation of the education encounter in a way that escapes reiterating the existing social relations of domination, subordination, extrinsic motivation and credentialing. Considering how long the odds of these things actually happening are, the future looks grim indeed for America's two hundred year + experiment with democracy. By waiving their obligation to provide informed consent as the governed in exchange for overconsumption and "protection" from manufactured fears, the sheeple have grown accustomed to using material goods to satisfy non-material needs and become mired in a suspended state of preadolescence." Several points/questions: 1) Are you saying that all educational systems are essentially flawed and nobody's doing it right? The problem I have with this as an assumption is that there do seem to be other nations (and quite a few of them, as a matter of fact), where their populations are being better educated than the United States. 2) How are you going to convince anyone else to work with you when you seem to be saying that the solution may very well be basically no solution at all (at least for now)? 3) I've always had a problem with the idea of calling people 'sheeple'. Misinformed (grossly so), I can agree to. The implication of misinformed is that accurate information can be provided/found and that some percentage of people are going to be receptive to it. More to the point of this discussion, there is a grievous disconnect between telling people that they are sheeple, and then saying that you trust them enough for them to support/vote for/help you.
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Post by Moses on May 11, 2004 20:17:49 GMT -5
Your premise is wrong here. Talk to some of the victims of the education systems you have in mind. -- if you were perhaps to be specific I could comment specificially. But many of these education systems are an outgrowth of, and maintain horrendous class stratification, for example.
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Post by POA on May 11, 2004 20:21:40 GMT -5
Your premise is wrong here. Talk to some of the victims of the education systems you have in mind. -- if you were perhaps to be specific I could comment specificially. But many of these education systems are an outgrowth of, and maintain horrendous class stratification, for example. So is there any educational system in your view that doesn't have this problem, and if so, how does it avoid the problem?
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Post by Moses on May 11, 2004 21:02:07 GMT -5
I think that public education was doomed when they made it compulsory. They actually having been jailing mothers of teens who skip. Tyranny never works. Such an imbalance of power never works.
And now they are really subjugating Americans further with the testing regime. Children are forced, by law, to go to these horrendous places, where they labor for those making money from the edu-field. And in 40% of the cases, they are harmed more than helped.
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Post by calabi-yau on May 11, 2004 21:27:14 GMT -5
I will grant you Moses that no education reforms are perfect but to do without is even worse. If America wants a revolution of the mind instead of one made in blood, education reforms are of prime importance.
Such reforms have been at the forefront of Québec's popular agenda and current affairs for the past 40 years and its Ministry of Education plays an important and influential role in the province's political affairs.
It is education reforms which formed the base from which sprung the Quiet Revolution through the 60's and 70's. A time when the system was taken out of hands of the church and replaced with a modern, laic agenda and curriculum. Access to higher education was now opened to all. The change transformed Québec society.
It did not stop there. Apart from investing in its basic schooling system, new programs were added to fit the realities of the 80's and 90's. Special programs for immigrants were added, educational ones for adults, vocational schools, tradeschools, new provincial wide curriculums, experimental schools. Businesses are legally binded to educate their staff by spending 1 % of their annual budgets into training programs. Does it all go smoothly ? No. Are results all clearly positive, not always. Québec is still riddled with problems with its education system and gains made in the past still need protection.
Without education and a well-educated citizenry there can be no positive change. How can Americans define themselves without the proper tools to know themselves and the world they live in ? Socrates was right.
Does the US government want a widely educated population is something I'm not sure of though. It always ends there doesn't it. The government of the people that is not.
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Post by Moses on May 11, 2004 23:25:47 GMT -5
Jacques Barzun, who has forecast an ensuing dark ages, says that the only way the public education system will change is by way of a parent's revolt. That doesn't seem to be forthcoming.
There are pockets of revolts but the news is suppressed and unreported, and the political power brokers completely ignore the wishes of parents, and use the public education system much as they did the media -- as a political patronage system.
The Democrats use it for the unions -- that is, the unions support them politically during elections and with funding, and the Democrats support the unions (not the actual workforce, but the unions, and most definitely not the parents and children). The Republicans are now turning it into their own patronage system, through NCLB-- our largest contract under this law was to a Norquistian political laundering front for neo-cons (including Ed Rendell who handed Philadelphia's public school system over to a private corporation) -- who is benefiting? The neo-con pols and the corporations that are the force behind this.
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Post by calabi-yau on May 12, 2004 11:31:17 GMT -5
More to the point of this discussion, there is a grievous disconnect between telling people that they are sheeple, and then saying that you trust them enough for them to support/vote for/help you. Mea culpa. The term sheeple can be perceived as derogatory and more care should be used when using the term I agree. In my eyes, the term describes to perfection the stratus of any society (not just Americans) who blindly hand over their responsibility as mature adults to the state or governments. They exist everywhere and they must be re-educated about the role they must play in the society they live in. For any educational reforms to have any impact in the US, adult education will need to be as important if not more to any other changes brought to schooling and curriculum for the young. Right now, the American Empire is in decadence and is quickly gaining speed in its downward spiral. Will it spell disaster when it hits bottom ? I cannot tell but judging it solely on its love of violence, there is cause for concern that disintegration will not happen without bloodshed. As I may have mentionned before, it was much easier for Québec with a population of 6 million to have a Quiet Revolution than for one of over 300 million to opt for common change and progress. To wait until dissolution or disintegration has occured before trying to make any changes may not be the best approach. In the past decades, changes of historical proportions occur in the blink of an eye . Though I am no expert on the subject, IMO being prepared to quickly implement a new vision and plan when the systems break down will be a gage of its success.
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Post by stonefruit on May 12, 2004 15:55:13 GMT -5
Several points/questions: 1) Are you saying that all educational systems are essentially flawed and nobody's doing it right? The problem I have with this as an assumption is that there do seem to be other nations (and quite a few of them, as a matter of fact), where their populations are being better educated than the United States. 2) How are you going to convince anyone else to work with you when you seem to be saying that the solution may very well be basically no solution at all (at least for now)? 3) I've always had a problem with the idea of calling people 'sheeple'. Misinformed (grossly so), I can agree to. The implication of misinformed is that accurate information can be provided/found and that some percentage of people are going to be receptive to it. More to the point of this discussion, there is a grievous disconnect between telling people that they are sheeple, and then saying that you trust them enough for them to support/vote for/help you. It's a fine line between being an honest realist and a paranoid defeatist. I walk it everyday. Unfortunately, I'm tilting towards a profound pessimism over the last year and a half. Although you could look at any number of topics, one canary in a coal mine that is so interesting because it sums so much up is the 911 truth movement. It is impossible for any one with half a brain and any degree of intellectual honesty to study 911 for more than a few hours without coming to the conclusion that the federal government had foreknowledge and/or complicity, and the assistance of private elements in transnational corporate fascism and possibly Mossad. This is quite obvious. If we could face up to it, we might have a snowball's chance in hell of turing this sick psychotic solipsistic willfully ignorant nation into something at least remotely resembling the Frank Capra progpoganda version. If we do not face up to it, the forces in the process of destroying the american experiment will do the last few things needed to finish their work. We are either past the point of no return or at very best a few years away from it. That's a judgement call few want to hear (or are even prepared to assimilate in any meaningful sense whatsoever) but I'm making it. In countries with elements of civilization, such as a free press, independent judiciary, and multiple parties in a a functional elective system, education can function well and create independent thinkers with useful broad knowledge. Since we have none of those elements, our educational system cannot create such people, only docile compliant unhealthy workers and consumers. It will indeed be difficult to convince anyone else to work with me when I seem to be saying that there very well may be basically no solution at all (at least for now)? Unfortunately it's true. America is a junky that needs to hit bottom before it realizes it needs to evolve. About the sheeple thing. The left has always been touchy about being for the working and middle class and yet often coming to the conclusion again and again that they are their own worst enemies and time and time again buy into the very propoganda and social structures that are most inimical to their own class/human interests. Since this is so counterproductive and self-defeating, it's hard for the "left" (fvck labels, let's just say "the compassionate and intellectually honest") to use words that aren't value-laden, like sheeple or idiot or moron. Really, if 60% of Americans STILL think Saddam did 911 and ~50% of Americans still love W in spite of two dozen high level whistle blowers and insider tell all books, then what can we call these people? Naturally, I'd like to think everyone is educable. (Even sheep can learn to unlock gates - unfortunately ranchers kill these ones.) This is Buddha's message too. Unfortunately, I think Americans have a uniquely extreme capacity for self delusion based on material abundance, geographic isolation, relative domestic tranquility, and bad schooling, which greatly exacerbated natural human tendencies to intellectual and moral laziness. This greatly heightens the amout of suffering that the average American will need to suffer before they realize the need for further evolution and more civilized educational, political and economic relations. So, until that moment of mass self-awareness/perceptual cleansing comes, which sweeps away transnational corporate kleptocracy as a by-product, they remain sheeple and the education system (and all other components of the wicked babylon system) remain flatline and irredemable. This is why I think it's too late to work within the system and perhaps even dangerous, because it may just flag you as a dissident to be thrown into the maw of Moloch when Babylon makes its last pathetic doomed-to-failure stand againt the people, using the only tool it understands - violence. Rather, I see this as a period calling for the tactical retreat into anonmynity by the shamans, clowns, mystics, seers, intellectuals, artists, activists, etc that will help build the sane future for naked apes and the planet they care for. They must stay free, sane, healthy and alive to reemerge after the cataclysmic collapse of the system under the wieght of its own filth and hypocrisy and greed to do their good and necessary work. This has been your conspiranoiac minute with the NDP propoganda co-minister.
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Post by Moses on May 13, 2004 0:08:44 GMT -5
Yes ditto the above re: the pessimism.
However, if you are looking for a short-cut platform for true educational reform, you should simply promise to consult with the parents of children as to what they want from an education system and the problems they encounter, and promise not to impose "reforms" crafted by ivory tower types in the edu-field or corporations or others in the "we know what's best for you" crowd.
You should put rescinding compulsory education on the table in some fashion-- at least for discussion to re-frame the issues.
NEVER consult w/ "educators"! or "experts" who are associated w/ political parties or corporations. This field is awash in "non-partisan" "non -profit" front orgs.
NEVER propose a Grand Design.
However, to dispose of some myths: It is the SIZE of the SCHOOL , NOT the size of the Classroom, that makes the crucial difference. "classroom size" is a workforce bonus. (appeals to parents because they think that's the answer-- but it isn't).
Bush was right about one thing (and this is Laura's influence): the instructional methodologies suck!! They are made up by morons in edu programs who know zilch about the human brain or child development! They don't even acknowledge the existence of the human brain, though it is the instrument of learning! Instructional methodologies should be taken out of the hands of educators. Research-based (using sound methods!) instructional methodologies should be utilized. These were identified more than a decade ago, but the edu-crats have eschewed applying them. And the testing regime will NOT cause them to do so.
Example: reading ability is acquired by the brain in a certain manner and the brain is geared to do so up until about the 3rd grade. After that-- it is NOT geared to do so. It learns the way mothers have instinctively taught their children to read for a 100 years or so-- in sound bits associated w/ the symbols. And it is best acquired in short lessons-- 5 minutes tops. But how are schools responding? Spending MORE time on reading "instruction" -- using the same bogus "methodology" they have insisted on that has caused a 40% illiteracy rate in the US.
NEVER borrow methodologies from another country. This is America and the other countries also have horrendous systems.
Change the school hours and environments to recognize that children are developing human beings. Read some of the proposals that have been made for "reforming" the system in New York and other places. They wouldn't treat chickens this way.
Maybe you should ask the edu-designers to pretend kids are agricultural products-- they might get better environments.
--
As to what the edu-crats are turning out-- they seek to replicate themselves-- a bunch of "i" dotting and "t" crossing, non-thinking, conforming to authoritarian wishes bureaucrats. And the PhDs who design the SATs and Intelligence tests of course have established criteria that establishes that their form of "intelligence" IS intelligence.
---
Talk to teachers too, of course, but remember, public education is supposed to serve the public-- not vice verse. Most teachers are not very bright. They have the lowest SAT scores of any other major, the second lowest being business administration. This is because no one with any brains can withstand the edu-programs.
(present company excepted of course!)
___________
I had other points but basically, don't think that tweaking things or feeding more money into the moral and intellectual quicksand that is the public school system is going to make any difference whatsoever.
You have to return the power to the parents and citizens. And respect them. That's what the country is supposed to be about.
________________
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Post by Moses on May 13, 2004 1:16:54 GMT -5
Other keys to understanding the problems w public education:
1. Important to understand that the public schools are NOT TEACHING the kids anything, but simply giving them loads of work to do-- work that actually miswires their brains, and is counterproductive to learning. Again, the bureaucracy replicates itself.
2. It is important to understand that among the many problems with the "curriculum"/ program designed by these "educators" (and it is international -- the Anglo axis of Australia, England and US) is that it is developmentally inappropriate. Their approach is completely wrong and stupid and ignorant. (I am boiling down years of research on this to plain speech). Get this: in order to prepare kids for high school, they replicate the high school program in middle school. In order to prepare the kids for middle school, they replicate the middle school program (which is the high school program) in 5th grade (and the whole "middle school" concept was devised for the benefit of Administration). In order to prepare kids for the 5th grade, they replicate the 5th grade program (which is the high school program) in 4th grade. etc. down through Kindergarten. It is insanely stupid. Nothing is done from the child's brain out.
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Post by calabi-yau on May 13, 2004 5:13:28 GMT -5
Example: reading ability is acquired by the brain in a certain manner and the brain is geared to do so up until about the 3rd grade. After that-- it is NOT geared to do so. It learns the way mothers have instinctively taught their children to read for a 100 years or so-- in sound bits associated w/ the symbols. And it is best acquired in short lessons-- 5 minutes tops. This method has been used in Québec for the past 20 years. Children are taught to read not by learning their ABC's but by visualizing entire words from the get go in relation to the image it refers to. Has the method given good results ? Well, I see it everyday at work with young adults and their spelling is worth sh*t. French grammar has never been easy to start with and the program was corrected in the past 5 years. The main approach has not changed but more emphasis is now placed on grammar and regular spelling. University enrollment procedures have become more stringent whereby applicants must pass a French proficiency test first (foreign students excluded). A good example how educational reforms are necessary and must always be updated and adapted according to results gained or lost.
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Post by calabi-yau on May 13, 2004 5:36:18 GMT -5
As to what the edu-crats are turning out-- they seek to replicate themselves-- a bunch of "i" dotting and "t" crossing, non-thinking, conforming to authoritarian wishes bureaucrats. And the PhDs who design the SATs and Intelligence tests of course have established criteria that establishes that their form of "intelligence" IS intelligence. Again, experimentation with new approaches does not always give the results one expects. In Québec education, the main focus is now put into curriculum realignment so that school environments are more attuned to young males needs. The number of male high school drop-outs has increased dangerously and if something is not done soon to correct the situation, Québec is heading towards a new society phenomenon. At the moment, there are more young women enrolled in universities than men. Even programs usually preferred by males such as engineering have seen sharp increases in women applicants going from a mere 7 % of students to 30 %. In a few years time, the new adult generation in Québec will have more women as family top earners and with a higher level of scolarity. What impact will it have on interpersonal relationships between genders and society in general is everyone's best guess. Are the two related ? I do not know but Québec is also very concerned with the fact that it has one of the highest rate of male suicides in North America.
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Post by Moses on May 13, 2004 7:22:32 GMT -5
One reason may be that male talents are thwarted and smashed from K on. 50% of males are born w/ a gift for structural visualization. The emphasis in public education here is on churning out paperwork. And if you are not good at paperwork there is something wrong with you as a PERSON. You are "off"-- you are "not good" -- you are aberrant.
Otherwise, males are favored in the public schools. But for males w/ gifts other than replicating what they want on paper, they are thwarted.
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