Military Recruitment at Fundamentalist Church

[RPankn]

First off, this is absolutely true and only happened about an hour ago. I am a Christian, a republican and support the war in Iraq, but this pisses me off in ways I cannot explain even to myself. This is not a debate thread, after you read this and look at the pictures, if you post anything it will be reactions, advice, or simple opinion. I know there are a lot of military personal in this forum and I would love to here what you have to say about this but if this turns into a flame war I will be extremely upset with whoever's involved. Now on to the story

The other day my dad tells me we're going to a "guy's night out" banquet. Innocent enough sounding, right? Well I haven't done anything that could be considered a favor for him in a long time, and it seems important to him if incredibly boring so, what the hell I'll go. He picks me up at the house around six. I nearly walk out the door about 5 times each time remembering something I've left behind, the last thing I go back for is my camera.

In the car conversation goes as awkwardly as it usually does with my dad, "What is this thing anyway? Just sitting around card tables talking about good ‘ol days?"
"Probably not they've got one of the guys from the battle in black hawk down to talk about his time there"
Thinking to myself, at least that doesn't sound too bad, "Cool enough. Where is it, are we gonna get there on time?"

"Oh, it's right up the street at porter memorial"
So, that's kinda weird that it's at a church, but whatever. Churches are relatively cheap to rent out during the week.

When we get there traffic is crazy, there must be two thousand people coming to this one church. It's kind of odd that there are three squad cars just to stop traffic and let us all in, but you know what they say, "when enough people gather together in harmony, the fuzz come to break it up"

There's a humvey and black hawk helicopter sitting outside with corresponding units, half the people that are walking in with us are wearing service shirts. Whether air force, army, marines, coastguard, ambulance driver or fireman, all these guys get a check from Uncle Sam. Ok, I don't have any problems with men in uniform, unless I'm drunk outside and they're cops. A door opens and we're headed into the basement for pork barbeque sandwiches, chicken quarters, refried beans and slaw. On the way I glance guardsmen setting things up with that military motion you don't lose in civilian life until about a year out of boot camp. We tell old war stories full of gore and glory and times we almost bought the farm, as we eat. Without any of that kind of story of my own I told him about a PI named John Landrith killing three armed kidnappers with a rusty old meat cleaver to save a seven year old. It's well received in the basement of a church while we eat our Oreo minis. When our meal is done the mass is herded to the sanctuary were we watch the history channel's documentary on the events of black hawk down. When the lights come up my earlier discomfort is redoubled. I realize something is very ********ed up, and start taking pictures. What I see reminds me of footage from the third right the way patriotic imagery is thrown around bugger all. What you’re looking at is government mesh thrown over the steps to the balcony, and a huge flag covering up all but the tip of a huge cross in the first picture, and the huge amount of people sitting below various armed forces banners in the second. There was a nice POW one behind me. I apologize for the poor quality but it’s a new camera, and I’m still learning how to use it, especially in low & mixed light conditions





About then I was given a bulletin. Roughly the same time they had all active members of the armed forces stand up for aplause, then all former members, then the fathers of active members (Remember this is supposed to be a father son thing, guilt trip anyone?)



Then our state National Guard ceremonially presented colors, i.e. this is now a military function. I think they were the only ones that didn’t say that pledge of allegiance, but maybe their lips moved and I didn’t hear it. I was way back. This was the first time in my life I said the pledge of allegiance with any hesitation at all. I guess I don’t like doing it in a place of greater allegiance, especially when it only barely has “under god" in it anymore. Right after when the nutsy Rockapella group sang the national anthem a couple people shouted “Amen!” at the end. I started to get sick right then.





After that, they had guys wearing the traditional US uniforms over time walk out in order while scenes from a Jesus movie I cant recall played. I was never aware of voodoo style witch doctors, or Indiana Jones being members of our military (far left and second from right respectively in the first pic). I think it’s kinda funny that unless I’m wrong that fellow on the far left of the second pic is wearing a confederate uniform. I know it’s ridiculously bad taste but yes, that really is Jesus on the cross in the first picture…in behind our troops. When the final modern troop stepped out too the front and center he thrust his rifle one handed into the air to shouts of approval, the Jesus footage was still playing, and at that particular point even my dad was uncomfortable.



[Continued in next post]#nosmileys

[RPankn]

At this point Captain Sturecker preached to us in full dress uniform about his early faith was based in fear of going to hell, but now he doesn’t need to fear death, and about his experiences in the black hawk afair. In particular he prayed after his first drive back to base (If you‘ve seen the movie, he was the humvee driver with the injured man on strecher in the back. He was also the guy that said, “The difference in between heroes and cowards isn‘t the fear it‘s what they do with it”), and after that even though the vehicle was shot to hell, he had no casualties. He even watched an RPG barely miss its’ mark and deflect off his hood. Every word of this might be true, but it was also part of a “The lord will protect you in the military” themed sermon. I have never had both respect and disgust for a single individual with such volume in my life. When I asked him for a picture with him holding the same bible he is in the sermon picture I think my attitude came off as “fan boy”.





Here’s a close-up of the Marine donated supplies they made such a big deal about. They were effectively his pulpit.

Mike could you do me a favor and open a thread where-ever we do debates these days, and link it. I would really apreciate it. I mean this as more of an informational, and reation thread, but it should be discussed

BTW no, I'm not done. It still gets worse.



Even as I had already taken these photographs of something that I clearly know is wrong, hell we ended with “I‘m proud to be an American”, after a sermon and a combined rendition of all the services anthems. I was conflicted. I knew, and know that almost all of the people I’m depending on to bring this to light disagree with me on virtually every issue. I wasn’t going to release this unless they were recruiting. They were.
Jesus himself only got mad once. It was because merchants were using the church to sell their wares, he flipped their tables, seized a whip, and attacked them. This day the answer to “what would Jesus do?” is grab one of the m-16s laying around and start kneecapping.





...

As I leave you with the final images I plan to of two of the ancient flags that surrounded the stage, and The banner at the front door I have to express regret that even a very small portion of my country is as religiously militaristic as the whole world already believes it to be. I myself think of this as a huge fuster cluck of the balances that are already there being missed.





shlonkombakazay.blogspot.com/2005/02/holy-st-its-fascist-picture-story-time.html

[Moses]

This is more evidence that the SBC is simply an arm of fascist political entities, not a religion. The SBC is a front org.

The fact that the US military is now going through these established fascist religious front orgs [to recruit!!!] is extremely alarming.

There is supposed to be a separation of church and state, and the military is not supposed to be contaminated by theocracy, and vice verse, in America.

This IS fascism.

I wonder if any of our elected representatives serving on the Armed Services committees object to this rape of our nation, and of a religion?

[Ropegun]

Thats an interesting response, Moses.

It would seem then that public schools are also fronts for fascists then as well, due to military recruiters showing up at high schools and colleges all the time.

Bear in mind, that was just a counterpoint.

That said, it would seem a likely place for the military to recruit, what with fundamentalist christians largely approving of this administration and it's military misadventures. Thats a pretty target rich environment for recruiters, and like any other business, a certain amount of performance is expected of them.

It does look rather spooky though. You could as easily replace the Army captain with Old Pink from Pink FLoyd's "The Wall" movie.

My grandfather, who was from Germany, would likely have some parallels to draw from this.

Thanks for posting this, RPankn. Thought provoking, to say the least.

[Moses]

The fascists are in fact taking control of the Public Schools:

1) Bush Admin and Congress made it a requirement to allow military recruiters to prey on kids at public schools in NCLB.

2) Bush Admin and Democratic Party Collaborators are imposing German-style (yes, modelled after Germany) testing regime on schools that will impose what is taught and what is not, and turn kids into workers instead of learners.

3) Bush Admin and Democratic Party Collaborators are introducing mandatory "mental health screening" into public schools.

[Moses]

Is is kosher for the US Government to use religious images to recruit into military?!

[Moses]

Turning Christian Youth into Cannon Fodder (or, Canon Fodder!) -- Very sinister.

[Ropegun]

Moses....

My point was that churches would seem to be more fertile ground in which to recruit for the military, not that recruiters were not allowed to recruit at schools.

In my own high school, as far back as the early eighties, recruiters were commonplace. My schools ROTC program actually had a small bore rifle range in it.

I agree wholeheartedly that it is not a good thing to propogandize in churches, or schools for that matter. I see why they do it, but I don't agree with it.

More troubling to me, however, is the military sponsorship of auto racing teams. I can imagine what it costs the military to be the main sponsor of a top fuel dragster, yet we have kids on the ground in Iraq without adequate equipment.

What kind of message does this send?

It looks to me like bodies for the line units in the field are all they care about at this point. Fodder indeed.

I had an interesting conversation with my wifes younger brother a few months ago. He's a fundamentalist christian, and believes the war is a good thing. He has nothing but negative things to say about my stance on the war, calling me a hippie pacifist and whatever. I explained to him that I was in Iraq during W's fathers war there, amongst other places. I then asked why he was'nt there if he believed all the crap he was spewing. He stated that he preferred someone else do that for him.

I hope he never has to go.

But I fear he might. It's kind of a catch 22. Either kids sign up and fill the ranks, and get deployed to Iraq, or Iran, or where ever, or the monkeys in charge reinstate the draft to fill those ranks.

The situation over there is not going to go away anytime soon. We will be there for years. And so will the insurgents. There does'nt appear to be many options left for the military. And you know as well as I do that monkeyboy won't allow those kids to come home until nobody is left to oppose him.

I don't quite know what else to say about this subject, other than it sucks, all the way across the board.


Peace, brother.

[Moses]

Yes. I tried to listen carefully to the testimony of the military industrial complex today before the Senate Armed Services Committee.

What they are playing is a shell game, through and through, to use a pun.

Levin and others have been asking them to add troops for a few years now, feeling the manpower is inadequate, and the military/Bush has refused to add manpower to their budget, stating that they can "transform" the military so that additional manpower is unnecessary.

Well, you can see the result from the forced military slavery of the reserves and National Guard, and their unconscionable tours of duty, and their complete lack of training or appropriateness for this inappropriate war.

Even given this situation, Bush did not put additional manpower in his budget!!!!!!

Each service was asked about their recruitment situation, and each answered that they were doing just fine.

It's just the guard and reserves that are a bit short, the Senators were told. (Well why are we even using them?!) Pressed on whether the Guard and reserves were on the breaking point, Senators were reassured they were not.

However, they were told that if the "transformation" didn't work, well, then they would be in a significant manpower crunch and would have to find "another way" of adding manpower. This "other way" was not specified, and it seemed to me to be a euphemism for DRAFT.

They also confirmed that we were engaged in a LONG TERM GLOBAL WAR "on terrorism", and thus need gobs and gobs of our money to feed their gravy train ("for the troops" of course).

It was beyond scarey.

[Moses]

Two things:
First, while it is distressing to see military recruitment advertised in civilian venues like sports, there is supposed to be a separation of church and state in America, and this was CLEARLY violated in the presentation IN UNIFORM IN CHURCH, using RELIGIOUS SYMBOLS, by the US military orgs at that even, and by the SBC church involved.

Second, No real Christian could possibly support THIS war, in particular, and would have trouble supporting ANY war-- thus the pretzel-like Augustinian justification for defense only, and the CLAIM which no one believes, that this war is "defense of our country". They switch up their pretexts, don't they? Isn't it now "for freedom" and "democracy" and not even defense?

If your relative claims to believe, which he clearly really does not, he would be quaking with fear about the everlasting hell that awaits him for violating all of Jesus' teachings. He is a GOAT!

This may seem harsh, but not in the context of the claims these people make as to the "trueness" of their beliefs, and their attempt at establishing theocracy here.

They are not at ALL "TRUE" believers, and I do not believe that they should be respected or tolerated as such, but exposed for what they really are.

If they deign to hold everyone else's feet to the fire, which is what they feel entitled to do, they should be hoisted on their own petard, (and then lowered into the flames, where they will go eventually, if one believes Matthew 25!)

[Ropegun]

You see, my friend, that these are the crux issues that the military faces at this point.

They realize that they are short of manpower, and that they are in an unpopular war yet again.

But that does not take away from the fact that conservative america belives what they are told about this war and the pretexts used to get us into it. I read all the time about "christian conservatives" think about this war. I also talk to plenty of them about it. And the war drum beating is not just from them. It's from alot of people.

This country has been fed a lie regarding their security from "islamo-fascisti". And a large number of people here, fundie or not, have believed it. Just like the wmd arguement, and the ties between Saddam and OBL. And all the rest of the lies. Peaople are afraid, man.

Now we have North Korea and Iran to deal with. Not to mention the Chinese. Add to that the economy, and it's eminent collapse, and people are really scared. My wife is even scared.

I think people with no understanding of things this complex look for simple answers. Lashing out at Saddam was an easy thing for most people. Thats why they went along with it and continue to support monkeyboy.

I wholeheartedly agree that a person who claims to believe the teachings of the bible should be appalled at this, or any war. But you and I both know that this is simply not the case. If Falwell really beieved what he teaches, he would never have said something so stupid as "kill 'em all in the name of the lord". Dobson would be councelling monkeyboy to bring those kids home. But this has not happened. They sit in a quagmire, and when their time comes to rotate out, new orders come down, and they're right back in it.

It's seriously time to call bullnuts on this issue. The brass knows they don't have the horsepower to maintain adequate force readiness unless they dip into NG and reserve pools. This is a job, viewed from a military standpoint, that should have been left to professionals, and not week end warriors. "Transforming" the military has not worked in this situation. Hence the recruitment drives at churches and schools and drag races.

I think the brass has it's collective head very far up it's collective rectum. But then again, most of those guys won't be in uniform to see the end of this mess, so why should they care?

The draft is on the horizon, and getting closer as we speak. Predators and Tomahawks can't hold ground. You need bodies with rifles for that.

More on this later. Good discussion!

Peace.

[Moses]

Now we have North Korea and Iran to deal with. Not to mention the Chinese. Add to that the economy, and it's eminent collapse, and people are really scared. My wife is even scared.

This is the part I do not understand. Don't people realize that feeling "proud" in their empiricist armchairs isn't a luxury that we can afford? And that it cometh before a fall?

Surely they are aware that Bush and the neocons are doing to this country what they did to Russia? (Deliberately) causing it to collapse?

Have they no concern for their country?

The Brass (all of which has been chosen by Rumsfeld over the bodies of more qualified and the objections of congress) are all for this interminable GLOBAL WAR-- it is their gravy train. And they are all for their "GLOBAL FORWARD POSITIONING".

And it came out that DOD has gone ahead w/ the nuke development, despite it being deauthorized by congress, AND I heard the USAF guy say they are turning the USAF reserves into space cadets. (Like we aren't in a f'in GROUND WAR!!). Having already disposed of close air support, they are even trimming their fighters, because they are putting weapons in space, along with control of world-wide communications capability.

Do these people not realize, there has been a coup!!!!!!!

Dr. STrangelove is running their country!!

Wake up people!!

[Ropegun]

Well, my friend, I don't understand the disconnect either. But then again, maybe I do. At least part of it anyway.

Not everyone in america is like us. Not everyone takes the time to read and educate themselves like we do in here. Not everyone has the time to do it.

Not that thats their own fault entirely. Some blame lies with them, but not all of it.

people in this country work more hours for less money than in the past. Most folks have lots of debt. Houses, cars, college educations, for themselves and their kids, it goes on and on.

Then theres the problem of how much we amuse ourselves. The superbowl, Britney Spears and the Hilton sisters, Ipods, Jacko.............ad nauseum....

All this crap takes time. Time away from learning about what is really going on in the world.

Throw in a worldview that dictates that everyone not following in your belief system is going to hell, or unclean, or an infidel, or whatever, and you have the ingredients for a dumbed down society.

Why do you think it was allowed that people get better working conditions? Or cheap goods produced by slave labor? Or overpriced stick built houses in the suburbs?

The answer is to keep said workers quiet and complacent.

People are fed the most assinine drivel from total idiots on television. Look at O'Reilly or Brit Hume. You know, and I know, that 99% of what spray comes from the mouths of those people is pure crap and propoganda.

But throw in the bone of religious alignment, or better yet, possible security, whether its physical or financial, and people will eat it up. Tell a segment of society what they want to hear, like the economy is going strong, and they believe. Tell them its no problem that 1500 G.I.s are dead, and they don't care. Don't tell them 100,000 civillians are dead and they won't know. Nor will they care to find out the truth. It takes too much time away from other things.

Why do you think it is that the internet is so denigrated by the aformentioned talking idiots? Because they can get away with it. Why would joe six pack look on the web for news when he has a tv?

Look at it this way. When someone holds a religious belief, and someone who professes to believe the same thing is president, said lemming will side with that president.

Christians have a strange fascination with celebrity. Any celebrity that has money anyway.
Now, please understand that I'm talking about the christians that follow the TBN line of thought, which I think is a fair amount of the fundie set. A celebrity can say pretty much anything, and alot of folks will take it as gospel. I know this because I've seen it firsthand. I used to work at a TBN affiliated church running sound and whatnot.

Since GWB is a celebrity, and president, he can do no wrong in alot of peoples eyes. There was a thread about the cult running this country. It is no joke.

This is why my brother in law says the crap he says. He also believes that america is where it is due to our support of Israel, and if we cut that support, dogs blessing would no longer be upon us, and this country would fall apart.

Do you see what I mean?

I understand your incredulous response to this subject, and I am just as incredulous at times.

I think it comes down to the fact that the majority of people are followers. Sheep, if you will. Which is ironic, considering Jesus called his followers sheep on numerous occasions. Even more ironic to me is that Jesus seemed more of a communist than a republican capitalist. But thats just my interpretation.

This is a good discussion, Moses.
I'd love to hear more from RPankn, unless I've offended him by all this chatter.

Peace.

[stonefruit]

game set and match. pretty soon this will occur at all the megamart evangelical "churches." american is a theocracy in all but name - if the ahmanson family and other dominionists controlling the electronic voting continue unabted it will be in name too - right down to the harshest old testament weirdness. it's getting so dark so fast. the later it gets the faster it gets late.

[Moses]

Christians have a strange fascination with celebrity. Any celebrity that has money anyway.
Now, please understand that I'm talking about the christians that follow the TBN line of thought, which I think is a fair amount of the fundie set. A celebrity can say pretty much anything, and alot of folks will take it as gospel. I know this because I've seen it firsthand. I used to work at a TBN affiliated church running sound and whatnot.
Since GWB is a celebrity, and president, he can do no wrong in alot of peoples eyes. There was a thread about the cult running this country. It is no joke.
This is why my brother in law says the crap he says. He also believes that america is where it is due to our support of Israel, and if we cut that support, dogs blessing would no longer be upon us, and this country would fall apart.
Do you see what I mean?
I understand your incredulous response to this subject, and I am just as incredulous at times.
I think it comes down to the fact that the majority of people are followers. Sheep, if you will. Which is ironic, considering Jesus called his followers sheep on numerous occasions. Even more ironic to me is that Jesus seemed more of a communist than a republican capitalist. But thats just my interpretation.
This is a good discussion, Moses.
I'd love to hear more from RPankn, unless I've offended him by all this chatter.

That's really interesting. Those who have set out to manipulate these people, through religion, for the past 50 years or so, have them gamed, of course. They have a hold of them by way of their brain stem, the reptillian brain.

But Jesus said DON'T FOLLOW the scribes and the pharisees, or you won't see G-d. Pharisees are described quite frequently and extensively by Jesus-- this was maybe his main point-- not to follow them -- and the "celebrities" that these people follow most definitely fit the description. In addition, the Old Testament establishes that it is wrong to attach oneself to false idols and icons. So these people are not religious at all, but simply are idol-worshipers. They need to be exposed as such, rather than have their pretensions to being religious tolerated. Because they are members of a political group, not a religious one.

But it does seem embedded in the human/animal brain to herd around a leader of some kind. Both genders have their version of this, the females tending to be devotional, and the males tending to go along w/ the leader and team military-style. That is, they have undue regard for authority. The manipulators have all this figured out, and play on it.

This is a key point. Do they really want to operate, to idle, in their reptilian brain? Do they really want to allow these manipulators to be hooked into their brain stem? Or do they want to use their cerebellum?

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Pankin won't be offended!! First, he doesn't get offended, (except by party hacks, racists, dominionists etc) and second, I think he would agree with you!